Logs for SPI board of directors candidates debate

Wichert Akkerman secretary at spi-inc.org
Mon Nov 17 19:37:36 UTC 2003

Today the candidates for the current elections for the Board of
Directors of Software in the Public Interest particiated in a debate on
OFTC's irc network. The complete logs for this debate are below and
I invite interested parties to read and and vote in the elections based
on the debate and the candidates platforms. More information on the
vote can be found at http://www.spi-inc.org/secretary/votes/vote2/

For those not familiar with the irc nicknames used, they are:

  cdlu      - David Graham
  Diziet    - Ian Jackson
  Hydroxide - Jimmy Kaplowitz
  Joey      - Martin 'Joey' Schulze'

The debate was led bet Bdale Garbee.

Joey       My name is Joey and I work, as everybody will probably know, on
           improving and promoting Free Software, through various
           organisations, projects, packages and means.  Google for "Joey
           Schulze" and you'll probably find everything out of interest.
cdlu       I am best known for my work on the creation of this network, but
           I have been involved with the community on some level or other
           for a number of years, becoming most active since 1999 when I
           became a #debian regular.
Diziet     My first free software was released in 1988, and I've been
           involved with GNU, Linux, and Debian lots since then.
Hydroxide  I also point people to my candidate statement, but will summarize
           a few details: I have been active in SPI with the bylaws revision
           committee, have put forth a proposal to SPI to allow online
           donations that has now been acted upon such that online donations
           are now possible
cdlu       I work for NewsForge, where I maintain the NewsVac feed and
           occasionally write mostly satire articles.
Hydroxide  Outside of SPI, my biggest Free Software activities are running
           the Linux Users' Group at Brown University, which I founded last
           schoolyear as a freshman.
cdlu       My interest in SPI is rooted in my use of Debian since 1998 and
           my appreciation for the work that has gone into it, and my
           involvement with member project OFTC.
Joey       Maybe one more thing that is probably not yet googled is that I'm
           in close contact with the FSF Europe.
Diziet     Most of my free software work nowadays is either maintaining my
           handful of GNU programs, and a couple of Debian packages.
cdlu       I wish to help the board become a more functional body overseeing
           a more functional SPI.
bdale      about one minute left
Hydroxide  This involves installfests every semester, weekly meetings, a
           mailing list that can be active at times, and technical support
           to Brown overall
Diziet     I want to see SPI become more effective, but most importantly I
           want it to remain stable.
cdlu       I've outlined my position as succintly as I can in my position
           statement at the outset of this election.
cdlu       done
Diziet     I'm done.  Please skimread my statement for more detail ...
Hydroxide  I want the board to be functional first and foremost, and to
           fulfill its duties as legal holding company of debian and other
           member projects.
Hydroxide  And I have other things I'd like to see the board do if it gets
           organized enough.
bdale      ok, time.  thank you.
bdale      I encourage anyone watching who wants to submit addition
           questions to /msg them to me for possible inclusion if we have
bdale      next question
bdale      What do you think SPI has done well thus far?
bdale      5 minutes, go
Joey       I can't parse that.
Hydroxide  I think SPI has avoided any legal trouble with the assets it
Diziet     What we've done well so far has been be a stable place for mainly
           Debian to keep its money, and to provide hosting facilities for
           bunches of projects.
Joey       Are you interested in what we think spi did well until now?
bdale      Joey: yes
Diziet     hy: Quite so.
Hydroxide  in other words, Debian hasn't been sued, nobody's done an ICANN
           dispute to get a domain name, people respond appropriately when
           we talk to them about trademark issues, etc.
Diziet     We've also (although this is perhaps less obvious) allowed our
           name to be waved by people like Bruce as our rep on standards
Hydroxide  We also have dealt courteously with donors of services and money.
Diziet     I think for SPI no news is good news, mainly.
Joey       SPI has managed to act as a stable umbrella organisation (i.e.
           legal and financial entity) for several projects.
Hydroxide  Obviously I am personally proud of the online donations which are
           now possible...
cdlu       SPI has managed to survive through internal struggles and apathy
           that have dogged it for a number of years. In spite of its
           troubles, it has managed to properly hold onto and enforce
           Debian's trademarks, expand the number of projects it supports,
           and provide the legal umbrella Debian and other projects expect
Diziet     hy: Quite.  That's a good thing, but very recent.
Hydroxide  SPI has managed not to crumble in the face of temporarily
           debilitating failures to meet quorum
Hydroxide  it has recovered nicely
Joey       SPI has also acted rationally and not illogically, and relatively
           stable, which is good for its associated projects.
cdlu       as well as providing a place to hold onto Debian's money without
Hydroxide  diziet: true.
Diziet     So is the next question `what have we done badly' ?  'cos I might
           start on that now ...
Joey       done
Hydroxide  done
cdlu       yeah, done.
Diziet     done, then.
bdale      ok, thank you.
bdale      next question
bdale      If elected, what would you do to encourage the membership to more
           actively participate in SPI?
bdale      5 minutes
cdlu       first of all, I would push for the creation of committees as the
           by-laws require
Diziet     The main thing, as I say in my statement, is to get the bylaws
           and election machinery regularised.
cdlu       committees would be charged with actively seeking the feedback of
           the membership through its mailing lists
cdlu       and deciding where SPI should go from there
Hydroxide  cdlu: I agree with that. Comittees with actual decision-making
           authority can get more of the membership involved directly,
           accountable to the board of course and ultimately to the whole
           membership body
Diziet     But I'm not sure that we should be worried if our members are
           largely silent.  We need them for effort, of course, and to make
           big decisions (like board appointments).
Hydroxide  diziet: if they're largely silent, how can they be informed
           enough to make good decisions when they do have to act?
cdlu       Hydroxide right, my understanding of the board's function is to
           coordinate committees
Diziet     The most obvious way to get our membership active would be to go
           mad :-).  So we should not count members' apathy as a huge
Diziet     Silent doesn't mean uninformed.
cdlu       secondly, the major thing that needs doing is to encourage all
           members, especially board members, to attend board meetings, and
           introduce sanctions to board members who refuse to
Joey       encouraging other people can only be done by demonstrating active
           work and interesting people in this.  The trademark/br debate is
           a good example on how to attract more people.  Opening the
           organisation to form active committees where members work, would
           be another such thing.  One cannot encourage by encouraging in
           the Free Software Community, but only by being actively involved
           in interesting issues.
Diziet     What I think is important from the membership pov is that I'm
           worried that SPI's membership is too narrow.
Hydroxide  diziet: no, that's true. there is often a significant correlation
           between the two, though
Diziet     I'd like to get all the GNU and BSD people to sign up too.
Hydroxide  I would want to see more membership from groups other than
           Debian, so I think I agree with Diziet on this
Joey       Hence, more such projects would be needed which will attract
           members to work on the issues.
Hydroxide  after all, we allow all people who have made a significant
           contribution to free software to join SPI
Hydroxide  as contrib members
Diziet     I'm not sure how to achieve that, but making SPI more useful to
           people (by getting our donations machinery sorted for example) is
           a good step.
cdlu       I think if SPI builds itself into an activist, instead of
           passive, organisation, the membership will come to us, and SPI
           simply won't have to go out looking for it.
Hydroxide  there are certainly many useful things SPI can do that are within
           its corporate purposes but beyond its current function as a legal
           holding company
Diziet     Quite so.
Joey       SPI should be more publically visible, that would encourage many
           people.  I.e. respond publically on certain issues maybe.
bdale      time.  thank you all.
cdlu       ok
Diziet     I'd certainly encourage anyone who has effort for those things to
           do it under our umbrella.
bdale      good debate, I'm pleased to see you taking advantage of the free-
           form format to question each other, etc.
bdale      next question
bdale      If elected, is there a specific, concrete, visible, and
           measurable goal that you will work towards during your term, and
           if so, what is it?
bdale      5 minutes, go
Hydroxide  One goal is certainly to finish up the bylaws committee work by
           working to get some useful amendment passed
Hydroxide  this would involve working with the membership committee to
           expire inactive contributing memberships so that we have an
           attainable quorum for a bylaws amendment, without inconveniencing
           anyone who is actively participating in SPI
Diziet     Personally, as I say in my statement, the bylaws and election
           machinery.  I have some experience in those kinds of areas, but
           haven't had the time to devote to it.  If elected I'll rearrange
           my priorities to ensure that SPI bylaws and organisation gets
cdlu       firstly - make the board functional by sanctionning board members
           who do not attend the meetings, the very core of the board's
           functionality. From there progress can be made to the important
           goal of striking committees to manage the day to day affairs of
           SPI, from the basic membership committee to whatever else needs
           discussing and resolving.
Joey       No.  Time will tell.  I would lie if I'd say one particular
           thing, since many issues depend on people working on them.  If
           only one person is working on something, that won't work well.
           Also, we'll have to respond to other people's requests and
           inquiries, they cannot be anticipated in detail.
Diziet     The second goal I would have is to make SPI's business generally
           more efficient - particularly, to know that our money-handling
           works well and reliably.
Joey       As I said, SPI should be more actively visible in the public.
           Having it mentioned on newsforge by Tina Gasperson is a good
           start, even though the reason was not that good, but it went
cdlu       SPI's board needs to be able to delegate its authority, but it
           has to assume that authority to delegate it.
Hydroxide  cdlu: I agree that the board should also follow its own
           attendance policy. I think that with the current bylaws, which
           have a high quorum requirement, that might cause a lot of
Diziet     But the most important goal would be that SPI is still stable and
           functioning at least as well as it is now, and that we've not had
           any PR disasters, lost money, etc.
Hydroxide  but we definitely need to get more of the membership involved in
DevRene    Hi!
cdlu       The by-laws committee, which Hydroxide and I sat on together,
           made a series of recommendations that the current board has not
           brought forth to the membership to vote on
Hydroxide  and we can also poll the membership more frequently
Diziet     The board quorum thing for me is a bylaws problem.
Hydroxide  to learn what they would like the board to do
cdlu       those changes will help encourage membership participation and
           the proper functionning of the board
cdlu       those are my goals
Joey       I agree, one of the most important goals is to keep SPI stable,
           without financial fraud and disasters etc.
Diziet     cdlu: Right.  I promise that if elected I'll take that up
cdlu       done
Hydroxide  done
Diziet     (But I will want to review your work, which I haven't yet.)
Diziet     done
Joey       It may be a good idea, to ask for input from the members for
           certain topics, maybe even vote upon them, and - of course - try
           (or encourage) members to participate in the discussion and
Joey       done
bdale      ok, thanks.
bdale      next question
bdale      How should SPI respond, if at all, to the SCO vs "everyone"
           situation?  Feel free to extrapolate to the general case.
bdale      5 minutes, go
cdlu       I believe that if SPI sticks its nose in the SCO hornet's nest in
           its current state, SCO may try and sue SPI, a presently weak and
           vulnerable target.
Joey       It would be a good idea to investigate the issue and release a
           public statement.
cdlu       While we should offer moral support to those fighting against
           SCO, we should not get involved.
Joey       That'll bring us next to the target though.
Diziet     WRT the specific case there might be some small amount of mileage
           in us issuing a statement or two, but certainly our legal
           resources aren't up to lawsuits vs SCO-a-likes.
Hydroxide  Since we do distribute the Linux kernel, we should provide some
           official statement on the matter, in coordination with the
           appropriate people in Debian (e.g., DPL) as well as our legal
           counsel. But it should be a cautious statement, telling our users
           what we believe their liability is with regard to Debian
Hydroxide  but we shouldn't say things such as Linus Torvalds's remark that
           SCO is "smoking crack", whatever our personal feelings :-)
Joey       As a statement it would be ok to have a web page enlisting our
Diziet     hy: That would be dangerous, surely ?
Joey       Hyd: Right, full ack
Hydroxide  I agree with cdlu that being inflammatory is bad for an
           organization like us that is vulnerable to strong-arm lawyer
Hydroxide  diziet: what would be dangerous?
Diziet     I mean, SPI should avoid making promises to Debian users about
           licensing.  We aren't set up to evaluate or defend those kind of
Hydroxide  diziet: right. we should say that, to the best of our knowledge
           after having consulted with legal counsel, we don't believe
           there's any problem, but that we're not indemnifying since we
           provide a free service
Hydroxide  and so it should be up to them to consult with their legal
Diziet     If there are specific legal threats against SPI's associated
           projects, though, we'll have to get involved.
cdlu       I don't really have anything further to say about it. SCO is not
           doing anyone - especially themselves - any favours, and the
           problem is likely to resolve itself.
Hydroxide  diziet: but since we do distribute the disputed code, we should
           at least comment
cdlu       SPI getting involved is far more likely to bloody its own nose
           than SCO's.
Diziet     SPI does _not_ distribute that code.
Hydroxide  diziet: an SPI member project does
Joey       Personally, I really wonder what the source idea behind all this
           FUD is, but we'll probably see in a couple of months...
Diziet     Those projects are not controlled or owned by SPI.
Diziet     This kind of issue will come up periodically.  Other
           organisations without cash-pots do the PR work.
cdlu       if Debian wants to put out a statement, the DPL can consult with
           SPI's board to consult with legal counsel about whether it
Hydroxide  diziet: but their assets are controlled by SPI
cdlu       I don't believe SPI itself should get involved. :)
cdlu       I'm done on this topic.
Joey       Diziet, but SPI is the legal umbrella around that particular
           member project.
Hydroxide  diziet: in other words, if SCO decided to sue Debian, they would
           sue SPI. we should NOT be inflammatory, again, but we should put
           out a statement of our _belief_
Diziet     hy: I think you're somewhat confused about the relationship
           between eg Debian and SPI.
Hydroxide  diziet: to provide some non-legal-advice reassurance to our users
bdale      ok, time.
Diziet     In particular, if Debian wants to distribute something and SPI
           think it's illegal to do so, we have no power to stop them.
           (Though we can stop them using servers SPI owns.)
bdale      next question
bdale      If non-free is kicked out of Debian, should SPI sponsor or in any
           way support a non-Debian organization that would continue to
           support non-free?
bdale      5 minutes, go
Diziet     SPI's goals are Free Software.  If this other organisation exists
           mainly to provide Debian's users with non-free, then no.
cdlu       SPI should support whatever organisations the board decides is
cdlu       regardless of Debian's position
Joey       SPI cannnot sponsor a project whose entire goal is to distribute
           non-free code, since that would be against our by-laws.
Diziet     If someone wants to fork Debian and provide both free and non-
           free software, then yes (assuming the non-free isn't a huge
Hydroxide  joey: it's actually not against the bylaws
Hydroxide  the corporate purposes do allow for it
Hydroxide  but, it's not necessarily a good idea
Hydroxide  since it goes against what SPI stands for in a non-legal sense
Diziet     But it would be against our principles, and our views about what
           SPI should be for.
cdlu       I believe it's a board decision, but I don't believe Debian
           should kick out non-free in the first place.
Hydroxide  yes, I agree
Diziet     I think it's an interesting hypothetical question.
Joey       err.. than it's against our state or whatever.  As long as we
           require member projects to work on free software or free
           hardware, we cannot accept a member project that doesn't (and
           whose entire goal is that)
Hydroxide  although, I think we should (1) clarify what the board thinks
           that SPI stands for, and (2) ask the membership the same
           question, so that we know how to make decisions like this in a
           way that will satisfy the desires of the membership
cdlu       Free software that is better than non-free software will win. If
           the DFSG-non-compliant software is to leave Debian, it should be
           from lack of use, not from philosophical shoving.
Diziet     I think the right line to draw is whether the non-free is
           essentially incidental or one of the main purposes.
Joey       If there's a project like Debian that wants to distribute Free
           Software but also include small amounts of non-free code, but
           doesn't produce that code themselves, that'd need to be discussed
           on the board and it'll probably be accepted, as Debian would.
Hydroxide  non-free has some advantages for users of free software, in that
           where they have no usable free alternative, it allows them to
           continue using a free OS
Joey       SPI has not that strong guidelines/rules as the FSF, but I'm glad
           they have.
cdlu       Diziet: I could live with that. SPI's board has the power and
           responsibility to decide it on a case-by-case basis. If a project
           would like to join that does not appear to meet SPI's goals, then
           the board has every right tor efuse it.
Diziet     hy: Is there really serious doubt about what SPI stands for in
           this area ?  I think the opportunity to clarify it here is good,
           but I don't think we need to write it into bylaws or anything.
Hydroxide  diziet: it at least should be a board resolution stating it
Diziet     So far we haven't had any difficult edge cases.
Joey       done
Hydroxide  diziet: because not everyone has exactly the same viewpoint
Hydroxide  diziet: since we all come at SPI from different angles
Diziet     The board approves member projects anyway, so a board resolution
           would be a guideline at most.
Hydroxide  diziet: and the membership should at least be consulted
Hydroxide  diziet: you're right
Hydroxide  diziet: but we should have a document worth consulting.
cdlu       the board's decision about a project would set precedent.
Diziet     The difficult question would be what if this putative Debian fork
           provides all the software, but has as its main reason for
           splitting that Debian threw out non-free ?
Hydroxide  cdlu: ugh, case law all over again ... it's useful to at least
           have a clear document to interpret via case law
Diziet     I think personally I'd say `yes but we don't really approve'.
bdale      ok, time.
bdale      good discussion, and as Diziet says, and interesting hypothetical
           to ponder...
bdale      next question
bdale      On the topic of international relationships.  An example and
           question from
bdale      Brazil, feel free to generalize to other situations in your
bdale      Brazil has a big Debian community, with a lot of users, many of
           whom don't
bdale      work directly to help Debian, and have little involvement with
           other local
bdale      Debian communities.
bdale      What do you think that SPI could do to help the Brazilian Project
bdale      change this situation and get a better relationship between
           Debian and local
bdale      free software communites?
bdale      5 minutes, go
Diziet     I definitely support communication between different Debian
           developers - and more generally different Free Software
           developers.  But, I don't think it's SPI's role to solve this
           particular problem.
Hydroxide  I'll generalize this right away ... what can SPI do to reach out
           to localized communities that are either like-minded or relate to
           SPI member projects but that don't have much actual contact with
Joey       SPI can't do anything.  The people in .br would need to do
           "something".  SPI can only help.
cdlu       Debian communities are the responbility of Debian, not SPI.
cdlu       However, if asked by the DPL, I think SPI could probably provide
           for resources, such as a "Debian community listing service" to
           all Debian communities.
Hydroxide  SPI can, if we get enough volunteers participating actively,
           perform outreach by making contact with these other communities
           and inviting them to be involved
cdlu       thus allowing people to hook up, but again I think it's really
           Debian's domain.
Diziet     If the Brazilians want us to take US$ donations for them, or want
           our advice and experience to help set up a Brazilian SPI-a-like,
           then we could help of course.
Joey       I'm pretty sure that organised meetings between those communities
           would help tie them together, but that's nothing SPI can do.
Hydroxide  joey: yes it is. we can facilitate meetings between groups that
           want to meet but aren't yet
Diziet     I think SPI's role in this area is to facilitate and help the
           work of others, but not to take the lead.  SPI doesn't really
           have the resources and experience, I think.
Hydroxide  joey: but this falls under the category of "additional things
           that SPI could do if we get active enough"
Joey       Brazillian developers or community members could, though, join
           SPI and form a .br chapter of SPI and be active in .br on their
cdlu       SPI's role would fall under inter-project communication, where
           groups from different projects can get together with SPI's help.
Diziet     If there's something we can do then I'd be happy of Brazilian
           developers told us what they'd like us to do and we be
           sympathetic of course.
Hydroxide  cdlu: yes, that's exactly it
Joey       Hyd: I disagree, but I'm open for innovations.  I rather agree to
           Diziet that SPI can help but not lead in such issues.
Diziet     I don't think SPI ought to get into inter-project communication.
           Free software projects should talk to each other directly.
Diziet     If we can help with providing venues (of whatever kind) then
           that's good.  OFTC is a nice example.
Hydroxide  joey: it would be more of a facilitating role to sort of get the
           ball rolling
Hydroxide  diziet: I wasn't thinking of a moderator-type role, more of just
           a way of getting things started
Hydroxide  diziet: helping to establish contact and collaboration, as it
Diziet     Why does that need SPI ?  Why do people not just email each other
Hydroxide  diziet: not controlling the process
Hydroxide  diziet: that will work in some cases, but when one project wants
           to collaborate with another project, sometimes there's more to it
Joey       Like I said, I truely believe that meetings (such as conferences,
           expos, workshops etc.) would help, but that's nothing SPI can
           actually do.  However, I also believe that those communities will
           merge and people will talk to "other communities' people", I
           don't exactly understand there to be a problem.
Diziet     If you want to start a `Free Software inter-developer outreach'
           programme, then that could be an SPI associated project.  But it
           would be your project (or that of whoever did it).
cdlu       right now, we provide links to all member projects (including
           less active ones ...) from spi-inc.org's web site. that is
           passive facilitation of communication between the projects. If
           the projects want more, I think we can do more, but at the moment
           I'm not aware of a lot of need for it.
bdale      ok, time.
bdale      next question
bdale      a reminder to everyone watching that if you have any late-
           breaking questions, /msg them to me.  we've only got another 10
           mins or so, though.
bdale      If there were one thing you could change in SPI's history, what
           would it be?
bdale      3 minutes, go
cdlu       the lack of elections until this year
Joey       I'd change the entire Open Source Trademark thingy.
Hydroxide  I would have had all the board members be elected by and be
           accountable to the membership. this is still only partly true
           (e.g., Drew Streib and Branden Robinson are two unelected board
cdlu       the board would be more functional and could have been years
           ahead of where it was today if it was into self-renewal with the
           help of elections from the membership
Diziet     The answer has to be obvious.  I'd want to undo the rift when
           Bruce, ESR et al left.  Those and subsequent events have caused a
           lot of bad blood over the years (some of which sadly remains) and
           wasted a lot of people's effort.
Joey       (next on my list would be the problems we encountered 1.5 years
           ago when I gave up the VP role in deep frustration)
cdlu       I wasn't following SPI politics at that time so can not really
           address the rifts created at that time.
Diziet     If we'd had useful effort rather than in-fighting then, we could
           I think have had elections and bylaws properly sorted by now.
Joey       (next would be the lost Open Hardware trademark/project)
Hydroxide  done
Joey       done
Diziet     Aside from that, I just wish we'd managed to progress a little
           faster.  SPI has been very slow in its transformation from self-
           perpetuating clique to a proper accountable and efficient
bdale      ok, time.  We're rapidly running out of our available time...
Diziet     done
bdale      given the time, this is your last "question".
bdale      5 minutes to make any closing statements and/or ask each other
           any burning questions.  You can hang around after then and talk,
           but in fairness to everyone, we'll end the debate when I next
           call time.  go.
cdlu       Diziet: I'd like to ask you... you've been on the board for a
           number of years. What has changed to make SPI more of a priority
           now than it was before this election?
Diziet     The real answer has to be that it's finally going somewhere.
cdlu       Diziet: what do you think has led to SPI finally going somewhere?
Hydroxide  joey: what do you want people to think of when they think of
Joey       I'd invite people to write inquiries to the SPI board more
           frequently, especially those who would get SPI help them
           implement anything that fits into SPIs goals.
Diziet     There's really two sides to that.  One is that the board is
           currently fuller of useful people and I think I won't be
           terrifically worried if I lose the election.
Joey       Hydroxide: a lesser FSF
Hydroxide  I personally would like people to think of it as more than just a
           shell company
Joey       what is a shell company?
Hydroxide  I'm not going to enumerate all of the corporate purposes, but
           some of them could turn into really cool endeavors if we pursue
Diziet     The other is that, if I'm perfectly honest, because of the
           elections I have to make a choice now about whether I want to
           increase my commitment to SPI to match that of most of the other
           board members, or to let others take over.
Joey       I'd like to get more people involved, and project leaders
Hydroxide  joey: well, what I meant by it is a company that does nothing
           more than hold legal assets
cdlu       Diziet: ok
Joey       that'll be boring
Diziet     What has led to it going somewhere ?  Having people on the board
           who want to be there and have an agenda, rather than people whose
           arms were twisted at the last moment !
Hydroxide  joey: I'm saying, that's what we are now
cdlu       I believe the elections, catalysed by Nils and Joey stepping down
           from P/VP, really are what helped SPI move forward.
cdlu       That and the publicity it all created earlier this year.
Diziet     cdlu: I think you're right, yes.
Hydroxide  Some relevant things from the corporate purposes:
cdlu       I encourage SPI to continue the path it started this spring in
           selecting new blood.
Hydroxide  to hold classes, seminars and workshops concerning the proper use
           and application of computers and computer systems;
Hydroxide  * to endeavor to promote, foster and advance interest in
           computers and computer software by all available means and
Joey       hyd: yes, let people put their work under the shell of SPI,
           that'd be perfect.
weasel     Diziet: You mentioned that you want to get the 'election
           machinery regularised'.  Can you elaborate on that?
Diziet     I think that before we start branching out into new territory, we
           should make sure that our own internal workings, and financial
           systems, are sensible.
Hydroxide  to teach and train individuals regarding the use and application
           of [free software];
Hydroxide  diziet: agreed
bdale      ok, time!  my thanks to all the candidates for their
           participation, to those who submitted questions for me to choose
           from, and to everyone watching now.  A log of the debate will be
           posted and the location announced on at least spi-announce and
           debian-devel-announce.  Please vote!  See www.spi-inc.org for
           details on the election, minutes of past board meetings, and
           various other information you just can't live without.  ;-)  this
           debate is now over.

Wichert Akkerman <wichert at wiggy.net>    It is simple to make things.
http://www.wiggy.net/                   It is hard to make things simple.

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